Tithing Money Back Guarantee
Things have been slow at Fide-O for the last several weeks. I normally post on things I am thinking about, but lately my thoughts have been on things that should not be posted in a public forum. Really and truly things are a little slow on the TR blogosphere in general, and I really have not seen a lot that I felt was worth writing about. Luckily my friends help me out occasionally and a recent email from a close friend and church member sparked a need to post.
We have a local church in town that is your basic seeker church for a po-mo generation. I wouldn’t call them emergent, but if they decided to try that for a while it wouldn’t surprise me. You know the type. All of the mailers promote a “no weirdness environment”, Spongebob is a regular attendee, and the Christmas parade float sports the slogan “if you hate church you’ll love us”. I am sure most decent size towns have a "church" like this. One of the results of this is a rather large back door which makes committed church members a tough item to attain.
Life Church at GetLife.tv, which is associated with the LifeChurch.tv network of churches, has therefore instituted a new “3 Month Tithing Challenge” in which according to the website “ten percent of everything belongs to God”. I was always taught everything belonged to God, but I guess that belief doesn’t promote good self esteem.
Also according to the website “But giving away 10% of your income can be a big – and often frightening - commitment! That’s why we created the 3 Month Tithe Challenge: a money-back guarantee of sorts. Essentially, it’s a contract based on the promises of God in Malachi 3:10-11. We commit to you that if you tithe for three months and God doesn’t prove Himself faithful, we will refund 100% of your tithe. No questions asked.
I have no idea what criteria they are using with which to judge God faithful. I believe they would first have to prove at which point in history God was not faithful and use that as the criteria. Yet, considering God is always faithful this may be a tough sell. Also leaving the decision of whether God is faithful or not faithful to someone who is not already giving to the church may not be the best idea. I believe they are banking on the fact that no one is going to actually ask for the money back. If this is true, and I hope it is not, then this is as gimmicky as anything I have ever seen and could fall in the category of deceptive. I personally have a different view of the Malachi passage, but even if I agreed with the 10% rule this church is very inconsistent. Instead of telling people they should give God His 10% they should be telling them they are stealing from God by keeping it, because it is His to begin with. There are so many potential problems surrounding this I wouldn’t even know where to stop.
Below are the terms and conditions for the “3 Month Tithe Challenge”
Terms: 1. I understand that this form must be completed and received by the LifeChurch.tv Finance Team prior to the beginning of the Three-Month Tithe Challenge Period. 2. I understand that my household qualifies for participation because we have not been tithing for the last six months. 3. I understand that if paid at a physical LifeChurch.tv Campus, my tithe must be paid by check, or by completed offering envelope, so that my tithe can be properly credited. 4. I understand that I cannot seek a refund prior to the end of the Three-Month Tithing Challenge Period, and that I cannot seek a refund for any contributions made prior to the beginning of the Three-Month Tithing Challenge Period. 5. I understand that any request for refund must be received by the Finance Team within 30 days of the end of the Three-Month Tithing Challenge Period. 6. I understand that I must log in prior to paying my tithe online, so that my tithe can be properly credited. 7. I would like to test God's faithfulness by accepting the Three-Month Tithe Challenge. I agree that for the three-month period I state below, my household will contribute to God, through LifeChurch.tv, a tithe equal to 10% of our income. At the end of the three-month period, if I am not convinced of God's faithfulness as a result of my obedience to His Word, then I will be entitled to request a refund of the full amount of contributions made during that 90-day period.
Posts
33 Spoke Up:
A few things:
1. "po-mo generation"? What’s that mean?
2. And also a big LOL out to Fide-o, I used to go to that church when I lived in Murietta, (only for a few weeks)! I needless to say wasn't "impressed". What a lame thing to do to try and get $$ from people.
And like most churches, the Malachi passage is nauseatingly misused. God isn't broke; he doesn’t need programs like that to get money.
I already feel a law suit in the works that's going to be on Fox News, CNN, MSNBC and all the major papers. Headlines will read "Local Church getting sued because Jesus diden't pay up".
Just more man centered god as a puppet on a string theology. Give money to god, if he does not perform....what is next? Making god pole dance or give lapdances? Hope god can dance to this church's tune.
bam bam bam bam bam (the sound of me banging my head on the desk). Almost feel like calling for the Jesuits of the 16-17th century to be formed again for the large amount of crap that is starting to be called church. Or maybe, just some ministers of God to have the backbone to call this what it is....heresy and blasphemy. Oh, I forgot, we should not judge.
Mark remember - God's word is God's judgement
po-mo = POst MOdern
;)
Brianstine you know that doesn't help your credibility around here.
However, would you email some personal perspectives from attending that church.
Your assessment is right on! By the way, I loved the fact that they had to list of terms and conditions!
I agree with your assessment of this church, but I hope that you guys would always post blogs with the highest integrity. After checking out LifeChurch's website I find that your statement "I was always taught everything belonged to God, but I guess that belief doesn’t promote good self esteem," is misleading at best. The quote you posted from their website conveniently left out one of the last lines: "God doesn’t need our money. He owns everything." I don't know if you saw this and purposely left it out because it gave you a good idea for a one liner, or it was an accident, but you need to be more careful handling the truth.
I think the god doing a "lap dance" or "pole show" or a "strip tease" would make a great Seeker or PoMo sermon drama event. While the preacher is talking about David's looking upon the woman on her roof, you could have strippers, pole dancers and lap daning going on in the congregation to take people's minds off of the boringness of the leadre's talking.
Maybe inscence and belly dancers with a talk about Delilah. You could go on and on and they do.
I'm confused. What doesn't help my credibility?
Not knowing what "pomo" means? Or because I attended there TWICE?
(I went there in my pre-Calvinist days mind you, 3-4 years ago when the Passion of the Christ came out in theatres)
st. brianstine I suspect your pre-calvinist days were in the days you lacked proper exegetical principles for Bible study?
I did see the statement that God owns everything, but which is it? God owns everything or 10% of everything belongs to God. I first thought about using this as part of my point of how inconsistent it was, but changed my mind. Do I really need to do a thesis on this entire idea? I didn't post 10% of what I actually think about the entire theological conundrum this poses.
Linking to the website so you can read it for yourself was my check and balance on integrity.
However, you have still failed to mention whether you think the entire idea was a good one or not.
Brianstine, I am just messing with you. I'll cut you some slack since that was before you were rehabilitated.
By the way how long did you live in Murrieta?
Jimmie be careful. Someone out there just read that and is planning a staff meeting on how to implement it.
Those of you on a church staff:
Have you ever used an ill-conceived idea, teaching tool, or aid to worship that, in retrospect, should have been given more careful consideration?
I heard of another church in Murrieta that did some "unusual" things at their summer kids camp.
The pastors would dress up as terrorists and with real guns (fortunately unloaded) abduct people and hold them hostage. Finally the senior pastor, dressed in camoflage and wearing a kevlar helmet, would come charging in with his own guns and rescue the victims.
Funny, we always used live ammo. Just sendin' people to heaven.
The Malachi passage is a great curse/promise, I think LifeChurch will be learning more in the future about the curses of God.
Sucks to be them.
Um. Wow. Can we lay off guessing what God is going to do to somebody else?
Scott,
I tried to get the pastor on the phone near the end of my show on 12/15. The secretary said that she would have him call me. I am trying to get an interview with him.
Gene
Look I know several of you commenter's are local and have some current or former ties to this church. Any of you who know me know I have never been a fan of Life Churches philosophy of ministry.
However, if this was any church in the world it is still a bad idea spun from bad theology. You can't call this a teaching tool because they removed the teaching element in the "no questions asked" disclaimer. This is also not limited to one local group who got together and came up with a bad idea. This is being done simultaneously across America in a network of churches.
When it comes right down to it what is being taught about God from this money back tithing lesson? I guess I will have to post on it next week.
Gene, if that interview works out let me know.
Scott,
I agree with you.
This is not an example of a bad gimick; it is an example of unbiblical theology.
I think our generation just doesn't want to say that these type of issues are "theological" in nature.
Thanks for standing in the wisdom of 2 Timothy and Titus and Jude and pointing out unbiblical theology taught in the name of Christ.
The money-back guarantee on tithing is not something new...not for me anyway.
The mega SBC church we were members of for many years made that offer a few years ago. I remember sitting there in the auditorium (it sure isn't a sanctuary) in February, which is always the time of year the pastor of the church would hit the money messages. My wife and I were sitting there in the service, and heard the pastor encourage people to give tithing a try for six months, and if God did not bless them noticeably after that amount of time, that the church would give them their money back.
I remember wincing with embarrassment and leaning over to my wife and saying, "I know he didn't just say what he said."
Then he did it again the next year.
Money back on a "retail" tithe? C'mon. Better we should find a church that does a "wholesale" tithe deal year round. That would be sweet.
How about this challenge: If I don't convince you that tithe collecting is extortion and that all tithe collectors are to be thrown in an oven, I will refund all the money that you are not likely to send me anyway.
Leviticus 27: 30 " 'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 31 If a man redeems any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it.
They are to return the tithe with 20% added if they want to be Biblical. Hypocrits! Blind fools leading the blind! Woe to you blind fools! woe! You love the pharisee leven, which is hypocrisy!
This is a prophecy of tithe collecting:"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give my price (wage, reward); and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price (wage, reward) thirty pieces of silver." Zech. 11:12
Because the exchange of the tithe for money law in Deut. 14 is a prophecy of the exchange of Christ for money, then, the prophecy in Zechariah points to the practice of collecting tithes. How do you prove this? Try dealing with the tithe of the land's twin, the tithe of the manna, in the same way. Take the manna (bread of heaven) out of the pot and put money in it instead. If you don't like doing that then why do you take out the corn, oil, and wine from the storehouse to put money in it.
Much more proof later if you need it.
:"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give my price (wage, reward); and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price (wage, reward) thirty pieces of silver." Zech. 11:12
That's not a prophecy foretelling that Christians will tithe! You're putting your own heretical beliefs on scripture. You're taking a verse out of context and making it into a doctrine. Conclusions are based on facts. You've only tried to make a doctrine out of an assumption that comes from your own immagination! Blind fool!
"It is the glory of God to hide a thing."
Keep in mind the law stated in Deut. 12 that you are to not add to God's word or take away from God's word. So which tithe law do you obey when you have believers put ten percent of their income into the plate? Your security is resting on the fact that God is lying. Tithe of the land He said. The corn, oil, wine replaced the manna as God's provision of food. Did He ever say you could place money into the manna pot? You seem to think it okay to put money into the storehouse. Now you spew slander and anger. Mark of Cain. His offering was not accepted either.
The verse says that they 'weigh' for salary. It takes a balance to weigh something. On the one side is the manna replacement, the tithe of the land. On the other is the money you collect that you call a tithe. So they are weighing for income the manna replacement. The manna, you know, is a type of the bread that came down from heaven to feed the world. That is Jesus. He also was traded in for money.
Melchisedek received a tithe of the spoils. Jesus, who is a priest after the order of Melchisedek offered his blood. Tithe collectors also presumtively make Jesus a receiver and offerer of the money they collect on his behalf. That makes money equal to the eternal offering of his blood. It does so for those who do the collecting. That is a dangerous heresy as best as I can tell.
The tithe that was given to Melchisedek was the goods of Sodom. Abraham gave the remaining ninty percent to the king of Sodom. Sodom supplied the tithe. Jerusalem is called spititual Sodom. They also paid tithes. Both were destroyed.
The 'vine of Sodom' Deut. 32:32 is found in the storehouse. This vine is the sustainance of tithe collectors, not the vine of Christ. The tithe law of exchanging the tithe for money (Deut 14) says you are to purchase 'strong drink'. Read Isaiah 56 to see what God says about this drink that comes from the 'vine of Sodom'.
If you could run a program that encouraged people to be obedient to God, and through it people did become obedient to God - is it bad?
Regards
Murray
Murray,
I guess we have a different view of the definition of "obedience to God" and the issue of tithing.
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