FIDE-O Interview
Today the fide-o boys came by my studio. We fired up the sound board and talked about the blog, ministry and other fun stuff. Here is the audio file.
enjoy
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Check out *THIS Audio* of Al Mohler on John Calvin as a preacher and
teacher.
1 hour ago
15 Spoke Up:
O.K. I am really behind now! That is, I'm supposed to be writing a book review for class, but I've been thoroughly distracted by listening to the interview. Great stuff men! Let me say it with emphasis - MEN!
Excellent interview, like Bret, I was supposed to be working on my message for Sunday and got distracted by listening to it.
Way to go. j/k
Nick
Great to hear these kind of conversations. These are missed since there are not many people around here who like to sit around talking about all things theological - and others! :)
Today I sent out a call for articles and reviews for the next Countercult Apologetics Journal. If interested, please contact me.
I called them "boys" because I am older than they are! It was not meant to demean their manhood in any way. Besides Jason shaves now.
Gene
Good interview guys-I think you guys seemed fairly humble and straight forward. Lookin forward to the UFC correspondent. I alos like the way Gene Cook deals with his opponents on the air-he is gracious and forthright. My best friends went to school with Dan Mages at www.masters.edu they care for that guy and are praying for him. Good stuff brothers. Key locks and kimuras for Jesus.
ScottyB
Psalm 63
Great and interesting interview!
On a personal level, I think some people have been quite unfair with their assessment of Rick Warren's book. Yeah sure, Warren isn't a MacArthur or a Sproul or a Dr. Bahnsen but I haven't read anything in his book that reeks of pure heresy. Warren's book PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE makes it clear that without Jesus you aren't worth anything. That principle goes against all self-help gurus. I mean, that's a politically incorrect statement. And I applaud Warren for a sentiment like that. Richard Abanes was briefly mentioned in the interview. I recommend you read his book defending Warren. He shows how some have deliberately misquoted or took certain portions of Warren's book out of context (for instance, people think that Warren approves of Robert Schuller's ministry... he doesn't). But then again you wouldn't need Abanes book to know that. One may simply read PDL and see the book isn't driving people away from God.
After reading Warren's book I looked through the internet to see what others have been saying about the book. To my amazement they trashed the book. I wanted to see why and read some of these articles. My impression after reading them was "oh c'mon, Warren didn't say that."
Now, as far as Warren's church is concerned and how they handle the ministry, I can't comment. Because I haven't been to his church. You guys seem like honest people so I'll take your word for it. Maybe they do things that are quite shallow but you can't compare them to the TBN crowd, can you?
The church I go to isn't anything like the Calvary Baptist church. We sing hymns not contemporary Christian music. My pastor hates doctrinally shallow preaching. Spiritually growing up in an environment like that I can't say that I like going to these "contemporary" or "emergent"-like churches. I probably wouldn't like it at Warren's church. But I wouldn't be ready to say that Warren is some self-help, let's-feel-good-about-ourselves "Christian" guru.
Just my 2 cents.
Guys, I enjoyed your interview. The intro music cracked me up. I like the conversational format. Maybe you ought to consider doing something like this more often.
Very interesting interview.
Thanks for your thoughts Frank. Actually, my Church History prof. Steve Nichols, this past week stated that Martin Luther was one who set the who purpose driven life in order. As the RC Church looked only at Church work at God's calling, Luther turned this upside down and saw all vocations as callings (i.e. purpose driven) from God.
BTW: I haven't read Warren's book, and no doubt will not - No interest on my part. I am familiar with Abanes' work since he has been in Countercult Ministry for many year. Some of us do wonder why he became such a staunch apologists for Warren - which has really driven him out of ministry. Well, there are other factors I'm sure.
Travis,
It's funny you asked about doing more dialogues like this because that's exactly what I was thinking.
Gene
I have a friend who is into Ultimate Fighting, but he doesn't blog. But you may be interested in Tom Wanchick's blog. Scroll down to April 15 where he discusses UFC 59: Reality Check.
Tom is not a presupper and Bill Craig is his favorite apologist. Perhaps you guys can work him over! :)
Maybe Phil Johnson will give Scott credit for his comparison of the emergent church and youth groups.
Frank Walton -
The issue with Warren is not that he never says anything orthodox, or that reading his book will convince you that he's some kind of heretic. The problems stem from two critical disciplines:
(1) Warren's articulation of how God saves...
(2) Warren's continual misuse of scripture to wrestle points from a text that aren't there...
Reading Warren's books won't reveal these problems in every chapter, but they clearly emerge upon even a simple reading of some portions.
(1) He articulates that "more people have come to Christ by feeling the presence of God than by all our apologetic arguments combined" Not only is this an unverifiable assertion, but an unbiblical one. No one is saved by either of the above. Sensory encounters with "God" are subjective and effect nothing salvifically. Apologetical arguments cannot save a sinner anymore than sheer human willpower. And lest you think Warren’s “context” will vindicate such declarations, the chapter where the above quote is found is about creating an environment where the “emotional barriers” of the unchurched can be removed by carefully crafting the progression of the worship service’s music and sermon to achieve that end. Clearly, Warren’s point is that preaching scripture and exhorting the will does not help in breaking down the emotional barriers which keep people from having a conversion encounter with the living God. The implications of such teaching are inescapable. He believes that sinners are converted by having an emotionally dramatic encounter with “God”, and it is the church’s role to fashion an environment that facilitates such an experience. Whatever he may say about believing in Jesus, or putting one’s faith in Christ is undermined, indeed nullified by manipulating people into subjective “feelings” or “thoughts” about themselves and God. Only the scriptures can bring the necessary clarity for man to see himself as he truly is, and for understanding his need before a holy and awesome God (Hebrews 4:12). What if someone’s “emotional barrier” is the absolute truth of scripture itself (see Romans 1:18f)? How do I remove it without eliminating their only possible path to God? In fact, this is Paul’s point in 1 Corinthians 1:22-25, where the very truths that unbelievers resist (Warren’s “barriers”) are those over which they must “stumble” in order to be saved! No one should pretend to “remove” the barriers between people and God. Only God can remove the barriers, and He does it via the Spirit’s convicting work in the hearts of sinners as they are drawn to Him in mercy and grace. If all we do is remove alleged emotional barriers by crafting worship services to make people “feel” close to God, we haven’t done anything truly spiritual at all. Only God can save, and He commands us to proclaim His holy justice against sin, His love and mercy toward sinners, and His redemption accomplished in His Son, Jesus Christ. I’ve been to Warren’s church and heard him speak. It was certainly a demonstration of the philosophy he espouses.
(2) Rick Warren has a very well documented habit of using only selective portions of passages and verses to teach his principles for Christian living. He has even boasted of his use of multiple “versions” in order to bring clarity to his sermons. What pretends to be a heart for clarity is soon discovered as nothing more than shoddy workmanship and poor exegesis.
Some examples will make the point:
a) His gross misuse of Luke 4:14-30. Mr. Warren used this text during an interview in Preaching magazine to illustrate how Jesus’ preaching always ministered first to the hurting, downtrodden, impoverished, and captive of society. In the interview, Warren claims to have patterned his own preaching, not after conventional methods from a book, but after the approach Jesus used in Luke 4. Unfortunately, Warren fails to mention what the actual context of the passage indicates, namely, that Jesus was announcing Himself as the Messiah who brings salvation to those who acknowledge their spiritual condition as being “poor”, “blind”, “downtrodden”, and “captive”. Amazingly, Warren goes on in the interview to say that preachers who follow Jesus’ method are sure to attract and sustain large crowds just as He did. Never mind that shortly after giving the sermon in Luke 4, Jesus was abruptly silenced by His congregation and almost thrown off a cliff!
To mold this passage into a primer on preaching palatable messages designed to “touch” hurting people is shocking naivete at best, or shameful, pragmatic manipulation of the truth at worst.
b) Warren uses the KJV translation of Proverbs 29:18 in an attempt to prove his statement that "To accomplish anything you must first have a mission, a goal, a hope, a vision." Looking at the original language, the verse more literally says "Where there is no prophetic vision the people cast off restraint" (ESV, et.al.). Warren can often be found using one verse that gives an impression in English which fits what he wants to say even as other translations render the verse more literally. Doing this enough times leaves people with the notion that they can pick and choose whatever “paraphrase” or English version suits their fancy as they study the Bible. This may “preach” well, but it dishonors God’s intended meaning and leads congregations into dangerous waters without clarity.
c) Chapter 10 of Warren’s book speaks of the blessing of surrendering to God. Using Job 22:21 to support his premise, Warren interprets the verse as saying "Stop quarreling with God. If you agree with him, you will have peace at last, and things will go well for you." In total disregard for context, he teaches a generic principle from the words of one of Job’s deplorable counselors, Eliphaz. These words were the result of a false view of God’s justice and its relationship to human tragedy, and were later condemned.
d) Mr. Warren often applies passages universally without reference to the specific ancient context (a common error in poor Bible teaching). His use of Isaiah 44:2, again, corroborates this tendency. When God says, "I am your Creator. You were in my care even before you were born”, Warren applies the words directly to all believers as a specific universal promise. By avoiding the second half of the verse, he can manipulate the meaning rather than unfold to whom the promise was exclusively made (Israel). Every serious Bible student knows that all scripture has implications for all believers, but to treat every text as if it is speaking the same command, principle, or truth to us today in the same way is disastrous.
Just because one can read Warren’s books and not see glaring error on every page does not warrant offering him a hardy endorsement either. Some have counted at least fifty similar examples of Warren’s eisegesis. A medical doctor with a history of even ten examples of gross negligence in the proficiency of his discipline is cause for revocation of his/her practice. Shouldn’t we expect much more from a man of such influence who claims to speak for God?
Anyway, Frank, thanks for taking the time to consider my thoughts. I’m not against the man personally, just deeply concerned for the purity of Christian doctrine and the power of God’s truth in evangelism.
Jerry Wragg
Thanks for the prayers Scotty B. Who are your friends?
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