A Challenge
In my previous four posts, I have seemed to stir some thoughts. That was my intention. I think that exegetical debates are worth having. But I unintentionally stirred a theological debate -- I guess since I endeavor to be pithy with my thoughts I sometimes raise more questions than I answer. Sorry. Nevertheless, that's what is fun about this whole blogging experience. I gives us an opportunity to see what people induce from our thoughts.
But I want to point out something that has troubled me. I have had several of you say that you disagreed with me and contend that when Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 that he meant that God had at that moment "turned His back" and poured out His judgment. Though we do not disagree that God did pour out his judgment on Christ as our penal-substitute, I still contend that is not what Jesus was declaring with that particular quote. (And yes I am highlighting certain statements, because some readers get so angry with this question I have raised that they do seem to clearly read what I write.)
I contend that since the point of Psalm 22 is a clear message of God's faithfulness in the midst of suffering that Jesus was being true to that context. Jesus was declaring to the world that He was in the middle of God's will -- and in fact pleasing God by being the Savior and absorbing God's wrath for us.
If you disagree, then we disagree exegetically not theologically. You will preach Matthew 26:47 one way and I will preach it another. Of course that is common, even among Calvinist. In fact, you will be able to quote way more commentators than I will -- and yes I know that is not always a good thing.
But with that said, could someone please give me an exegetical reason why I am wrong.
Don't just say that Jesus meant this or that -- exegetically prove it.
Don't just say, "Well, all of theologians we love (including Phil Johnson) believe that Jesus pulled that verse out of the Messianic psalm to mean the opposite of what you are saying." Trust me, I fear to be opposition to the collective wisdom of such men. (Besides, I don't want my name mentioned next year in a super seminar at the Shepherd's Conference. And yes I will be there sitting at Phil's feet soaking in the wisdom.)
But for the sake of our discussion just don't give me a bandwagon excuse. I have went out on a limb here and am amazed by how many seemed to be scared to say anything. But don't worry, to be in disagreement on this exegetical argument will not mean that either of us is heretical. Don't fear that I will put you in the "Wolves" category.
So here are some exegetical questions: Did the psalmist mean that God had actually forsaken him or only that it appeared that way? Had God forsaken the psalmist? Was the wrath of God the cause for the psalmist's suffering? Is it exegetically appropriate to redefine the meaning of an Old Testament text in order to force to fit a certain theological argument? If Jesus did not quote Ps. 22:1 to mean that God had forsaken him, does that actually do damage to the doctrine of penal-substitution, or can that doctrine survive without it? And if you disagree with me, can you give me other examples where Jesus quoted the Old Testament and meant the opposite of what the given quote meant in its original context?
And if your answer is very long, post it on your blog and send us a link in the comments section.
Here is a backtrack to my previous comments on this issue:
Did God Turn His Back?
My God, My God
Deserted By God?
Angry God, Faithful Father
Posts
9 Spoke Up:
Jason said:
". . . can you give me other examples where Jesus quoted the Old Testament and meant the opposite of what the given quote meant in its original context?"
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but here's an example, and not opposite meaning, but a different referent:
Mt 2:15 usage of Hos. 11:1--historical referent=nation of Israel; proleptic referent=Jesus Christ (coroporate solidarity with Israel, i.e. recapitulation).
Or another . . .
I Pet 2:9 quotes part of Ex 19:6 applying the Ex. passage (which was originally referencing Israel)to the Church in Peter's usage.
These are two of many many examples that I suppose could be cited here.
What do you think about these?
woops these aren't Jesus quoting scripture, but in a sense they are, given the doctrine of inspiration.
Maybe I'll come back later with Jesus' usage of the OT :).
Okay, here goes.
I commented on Hatcher's blog and copied it on a Fide-O post.
I guess nothing.
Bobby, no disrespect, but I don't follow you. Can you clarify?
You asked ". . . can you give me other examples where Jesus quoted the Old Testament and meant the opposite of what the given quote meant in its original context?".
I supplied you, in a broader sense, than Jesus' usage, two passages that indeed use OT scripture with a different referent--which makes one wonder about authorial intentionality and meaning, with these texts.
My examples were kind of outside of your particular discussion, i.e. the Ps 22 crux interpretum, but I think pertinent to establishing an understanding, at least for me, on how you deal with the NT's usage of the OT in a general hermeneutical way. In other words are you sensus plenior advocate, referensus plenior advocate, allegory, spiritualizer, divine/human intentionality model (i.e. Walter Kaiser's approach--informing theology), etc., etc.
I should've been more straightforward with you, sorry about that :(.
BTW, my dad grew up in Wildomar, way before anything was there, except farms--all of my dad's family is still out in that area (Wildomar, Murrietta Hot Springs, etc.). How long has your church been in existence out that way? I actually went to Calvary Chapel Bible College for a yr (outside of my theological tradition a bit--I'm a conservative baptist, after I'm a Christian of course :), in Murrietta; before I came up here (Portland, OR) to go to Multnomah Bible College 01 & Seminary 03.
Anyway God bless!
Four years ago we three pastors (Jason, Scott, Phil) started Murrieta Valley Church. I graduated from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. After fifteen wonderful years of ministry in the "Bible Belt" I had a strong desire to move to ?Southern California and plant and pastor a solid Biblical church. I have never been a part of a stronger, more healthy church than the one that God is blessing here in Murrieta.
That's awesome, Jason! How did you get from the "Bible Belt" to Murrieta, in other words, why did you even come to think of little Murrieta, CA (did you know someone from there?).
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